Cool montage Dave, or hot maybe!
Could one call these single engine jobs "water fighters" or "water
fighter-bombers"?
Thanks,
Bill W

"Trajan" > wrote in message
...
> Cool montage Dave, or hot maybe!
> Could one call these single engine jobs "water fighters" or "water
> fighter-bombers"?
> Thanks,
> Bill W
>
>
>



Thanks, sometimes good, close, overhead footage is hard to find.


The tragic fires in Victoria last year have opened up the discussion about
larger water bombing aircraft in Australia. The Victorian government,
responding as politicians do, have contracted a DC-10 water bomber for this
fire season

For the last 10-15 years there have been fairly loud and regular calls for a
brace of Canadair CL-415s to be based in Australia - from everybody except
the fire services, who seem to be happy with the fleet of leased
agricultural aircraft.


Time will tell, I suppose. We could always drop politicians on the fires,
they don't burn that much.



--


Cheers

Dave Kearton

"Dave Kearton" > wrote in message
...
> "Trajan" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Cool montage Dave, or hot maybe!
>> Could one call these single engine jobs "water fighters" or "water
>> fighter-bombers"?
>> Thanks,
>> Bill W
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
> Thanks, sometimes good, close, overhead footage is hard to find.
>
>
> The tragic fires in Victoria last year have opened up the discussion about
> larger water bombing aircraft in Australia. The Victorian government,
> responding as politicians do, have contracted a DC-10 water bomber for
> this fire season
>
> For the last 10-15 years there have been fairly loud and regular calls for
> a brace of Canadair CL-415s to be based in Australia - from everybody
> except the fire services, who seem to be happy with the fleet of leased
> agricultural aircraft.
>
>
> Time will tell, I suppose. We could always drop politicians on the
> fires, they don't burn that much.
>
>
>
> --
>
>
> Cheers
>
> Dave Kearton


Careful you don't drop one of the really gassy ones, could bring down the
aircraft!
Saw a news blurb about the temps in Adelaide, 30 degrees at 6:00 in the
morning, high of 40. Whew....
We could use some of that heat here in the mid-central US, we haven't been
above freezing for two weeks.
Oh well, I'll remember it more fondly come July.

Stay cool,
Bill Wolcott






>
>
>
>

"Trajan" > wrote in message
...
>
>
>
>
> Careful you don't drop one of the really gassy ones, could bring down the
> aircraft!
> Saw a news blurb about the temps in Adelaide, 30 degrees at 6:00 in the
> morning, high of 40. Whew....
> We could use some of that heat here in the mid-central US, we haven't been
> above freezing for two weeks.
> Oh well, I'll remember it more fondly come July.
>
> Stay cool,
> Bill Wolcott
>
>
>


Thanks Bill. The cool change arrived this morning, temps down to the low
twenties with frequent showers since 0530.


I'm amazed that news of our weather has made it out your way, surely the
snow is a much bigger story.


Our background mortality rate seems to peak during a heat wave. I've
heard some startling numbers of elderly people who quietly expire in their
homes during the hot spells and community services like the Red Cross are
flat-out checking at-risk clients several times a day during the summer.



I think I'll opt to stay next to the air-conditioner.


--


Cheers

Dave Kearton

On Tue, 12 Jan 2010 12:11:42 +1030, "Dave Kearton"
> wrote:

>"Trajan" > wrote in message
...
>> Cool montage Dave, or hot maybe!
>> Could one call these single engine jobs "water fighters" or "water
>> fighter-bombers"?
>> Thanks,
>> Bill W
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>Thanks, sometimes good, close, overhead footage is hard to find.
>
>
>The tragic fires in Victoria last year have opened up the discussion about
>larger water bombing aircraft in Australia. The Victorian government,
>responding as politicians do, have contracted a DC-10 water bomber for this
>fire season
>
>For the last 10-15 years there have been fairly loud and regular calls for a
>brace of Canadair CL-415s to be based in Australia - from everybody except
>the fire services, who seem to be happy with the fleet of leased
>agricultural aircraft.
>
>
>Time will tell, I suppose. We could always drop politicians on the fires,
>they don't burn that much.

We're gonna need a bigger fire...

On Mon, 11 Jan 2010 21:13:28 -0500, "Trajan"
> wrote:

>
>
>"Dave Kearton" > wrote in message
...
>> "Trajan" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> Cool montage Dave, or hot maybe!
>>> Could one call these single engine jobs "water fighters" or "water
>>> fighter-bombers"?
>>> Thanks,
>>> Bill W
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks, sometimes good, close, overhead footage is hard to find.
>>
>>
>> The tragic fires in Victoria last year have opened up the discussion about
>> larger water bombing aircraft in Australia. The Victorian government,
>> responding as politicians do, have contracted a DC-10 water bomber for
>> this fire season
>>
>> For the last 10-15 years there have been fairly loud and regular calls for
>> a brace of Canadair CL-415s to be based in Australia - from everybody
>> except the fire services, who seem to be happy with the fleet of leased
>> agricultural aircraft.
>>
>>
>> Time will tell, I suppose. We could always drop politicians on the
>> fires, they don't burn that much.
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>>
>> Cheers
>>
>> Dave Kearton
>
>
>Careful you don't drop one of the really gassy ones, could bring down the
>aircraft!
>Saw a news blurb about the temps in Adelaide, 30 degrees at 6:00 in the
>morning, high of 40. Whew....
>We could use some of that heat here in the mid-central US, we haven't been
>above freezing for two weeks.
>Oh well, I'll remember it more fondly come July.
>
>Stay cool,
>Bill Wolcott

Seattle, in the far northwest USA, was several degrees ~warmer~
yesterday than Miami, Florida (diagonally across the US, supposedly in
the tropics.)

El Nino, dontchaknow.

On Tue, 12 Jan 2010 14:27:06 +1030, "Dave Kearton"
> wrote:

>"Trajan" > wrote in message
...
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Careful you don't drop one of the really gassy ones, could bring down the
>> aircraft!
>> Saw a news blurb about the temps in Adelaide, 30 degrees at 6:00 in the
>> morning, high of 40. Whew....
>> We could use some of that heat here in the mid-central US, we haven't been
>> above freezing for two weeks.
>> Oh well, I'll remember it more fondly come July.
>>
>> Stay cool,
>> Bill Wolcott
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>Thanks Bill. The cool change arrived this morning, temps down to the low
>twenties with frequent showers since 0530.
>
>
>I'm amazed that news of our weather has made it out your way, surely the
>snow is a much bigger story.
>
>
>Our background mortality rate seems to peak during a heat wave. I've
>heard some startling numbers of elderly people who quietly expire in their
>homes during the hot spells and community services like the Red Cross are
>flat-out checking at-risk clients several times a day during the summer.
>
>
>
>I think I'll opt to stay next to the air-conditioner.

My apartment is on the southwest corner of a brick & concrete
building, with floor-to-ceiling south-facing windows. It can get
amazingly toasty in here on a hot summer day, easily into the high
90sF.

I'm not (quite yet) an old fart, but before I rescued a clunky, but
still working, air conditioner from the trash a few years ago, I had a
couple days where I began to worry a bit for my health.

It is surprisingly easy to let heat and dehydration get away from you.
Remember that terrible heat wave in Europe a couple years back where
several thousand folks didn't make it.

On the upside, those south-facing windows I have are great on a
frigid-but-sunny winter day; I can easily get this place too warm for
the few hours the sun is up. The cat is equally impressed.

Bob ^,,^

>
>
> Thanks Bill. The cool change arrived this morning, temps down to the
> low
> twenties with frequent showers since 0530.
>
>
> I'm amazed that news of our weather has made it out your way, surely the
> snow is a much bigger story.
>
>
> Our background mortality rate seems to peak during a heat wave. I've
> heard some startling numbers of elderly people who quietly expire in their
> homes during the hot spells and community services like the Red Cross are
> flat-out checking at-risk clients several times a day during the summer.
>
>
>
> I think I'll opt to stay next to the air-conditioner.
>
>
> --
>
>
> Cheers
>
> Dave Kearton

Hi Dave,
Perhaps the snow's a bigger story here, but the "other side of the world"
heat wave makes for a great counter-point. Esp. as we can't run off to the
usual Southern states to get warm, it's cool even in Miami. My oldest just
spent Christmas break working at WDW in Orlando, came back complaining about
it only being in the 50's and 60's (f) Christmas week. Now she wishes it
were that "warm" here.
A powerful AC and a cold, frosty drink are an unbeatable pair in the dog
days of summer.
Bill Wolcott

Dave Kearton wrote:

> We could always drop politicians on the
> fires, they don't burn that much.

Perhaps not in and of themselves, but the hot air they contain certainly
won't help matters... <G>


Jon

Dave Kearton wrote:

> For the last 10-15 years there have been fairly loud and regular calls
> for a brace of Canadair CL-415s to be based in Australia - from
> everybody except the fire services, who seem to be happy with the fleet
> of leased agricultural aircraft.

Those Air Tractors are certainly better than nothing, but I'm surprised
to learn larger aircraft are not much more common. Maybe things will
start to change soon.


Jon

"Jon Anderson" > wrote in message
...
> Dave Kearton wrote:
>
>> For the last 10-15 years there have been fairly loud and regular calls
>> for a brace of Canadair CL-415s to be based in Australia - from everybody
>> except the fire services, who seem to be happy with the fleet of leased
>> agricultural aircraft.
>
> Those Air Tractors are certainly better than nothing, but I'm surprised to
> learn larger aircraft are not much more common. Maybe things will start to
> change soon.
>
>
> Jon




Well, if they do, it'll be a purely political requirement, not an
operational one.

This year's "trial" of the DC-10 aircraft is rumoured to have cost $10m -
and that's just for our smallest mainland state.


I'd be happy to pay for it if the fire services were asking for them, but
they're not. The push seems to be from uninvolved rednecks on talk-back
radio.



--


Cheers

Dave Kearton

Dave Kearton wrote:

> Well, if they do, it'll be a purely political requirement, not an
> operational one.
>
> This year's "trial" of the DC-10 aircraft is rumoured to have cost $10m
> - and that's just for our smallest mainland state.

Wow, that's a lot of money for a trial...
Maybe I don't understand the situation down there. I live in the Sierra
Nevada Mountains, near Lake Tahoe. Area is blanketed with oak, madrone,
and evergreens such as pine and fir. Air bases are scattered and there's
really no place for planes to reload outside of the air bases. Lots of
ponds and lakes for helicopters though.

Perhaps the lower load of the Air Tractor is offset by being able to
turn around a lot faster? Are they able to be serviced from suitable
roads? That would sure change the game. I was just thinking of the small
load vs long distances to travel...

Locally we have 2 S2's with turbines, a helicopter, and an OV-10
spotter. I'm only about 3 miles from the airbase, which is comforting! I
have seen what I think is a DC-6 and a C-130 fighting nearby fires.
Actually what I think is the DC-6, I got a REAL good look at, as he came
up out of a canyon and crossed the ridge I was on maybe 1.5x his
wingspan above the trees. Man I wish I had a camera with me, I could see
the pilot looking down at me...


Jon

"Jon Anderson" > wrote in message
...
> Dave Kearton wrote:
>
>> Well, if they do, it'll be a purely political requirement, not an
>> operational one.
>>
>> This year's "trial" of the DC-10 aircraft is rumoured to have cost $10m -
>> and that's just for our smallest mainland state.
>
> Wow, that's a lot of money for a trial...
> Maybe I don't understand the situation down there. I live in the Sierra
> Nevada Mountains, near Lake Tahoe. Area is blanketed with oak, madrone,
> and evergreens such as pine and fir. Air bases are scattered and there's
> really no place for planes to reload outside of the air bases. Lots of
> ponds and lakes for helicopters though.


A common rhetoric on the talkback shows seems to be "if it works in America,
we should do it here.....Greece has 10 of them (CL-415s) and we have
none..."

I wonder how many of these callers are related to people who will benefit
from buying, leasing & operating these planes, or maybe I'm just being
cynical.

Large airports are _generally_on the coast, large fires can be inland.
Large bodies of water are few and unavailable to sea-skimming water bombers.
The water authorities are unenthusiastic about the risk of contaminating our
water supply in the unlikely crash of a water scooping plane on a dam or
river.

We had trials of a modular C-130 system about 20 years ago. Given the
required infrastructure for storage of retardant, water and pumping
equipment and trained ground crew, these large aircraft can't be based
ad-hoc at the nearest airport, but need to be operated from "permanent"
bases. During the trials in NSW and Victoria, this resulted in a
turnaround time from one of 3 widely dispersed airports/airbases to a
nominal fire location, from the nearest base in a 'dump-return-dump again'
situation was 1 and a half to 2 hours - and that's just for a single fire..


Victoria's killer fires last year featured 4 or 5 fire fronts on the same
day. Even then, it's not uncommon to have more than one state with
life-threatening fires at the same time during each summer season - so a
single large plane isn't the obvious solution.






>
> Perhaps the lower load of the Air Tractor is offset by being able to turn
> around a lot faster? Are they able to be serviced from suitable roads?
> That would sure change the game. I was just thinking of the small load vs
> long distances to travel...
>


The most popular aircraft with the fire crews (from what I hear - I have NO
connection to the issue) is the Erikson Air-Crane. It can dump 10,000L
per sortie and because it's a helo, it can operate close to the fire front,
with very short turnaround times (for a 10,000L aircraft). The hourly
costs are probably fairly steep, but it seems to be enthusiastically
supported
by its customers.

The air tractors and smaller heloes with buckets are a practical solution
for us.


A jet Ranger with a bucket can drop 900L on top of a fire, refill from a
farm dam or roadside tanker and do it again in 5 minutes.

The smaller crop dusters generally take 1,800L, the larger ones about 3,000L
and can land on a roadside or open field, refill from tankers, farm supplies
or roadside tanker refill stations that are built into the rural water
supply system. Turnaround times for these planes are still around 10
minutes or so, depending on how close they're based.

These smaller planes can operate in windier conditions and can drop the
retardant from lower altitudes, with higher accuracy and less wastage or
dispersion, than the really large aircraft.



I don't want to keep coming back to the money, because it's mostly about
saving lives and property, but if you bring in a bunch of big planes for the
season, you've just defined an operating budget of several million dollars.

With that money, you can lease a large fleet of local planes and crews in
their agricultural off-season, that don't have to be flown in from overseas
(with huge transit costs). They can operate at short notice on many
concurrent fire fronts. They're flexible and work hand in glove with
the local fire commanders, using their ground resources and can be quickly
redeployed as priorities dictate. A number of available planes can
dump the same amount of retardant closer to the fires, over a longer period
for less money.


Nobody wants to admit they're looking at the meter, but it _always_ comes
down to cost. The only problem with these small planes is that
they're not sexy like the Air-cranes or the 747 tankers, so they have no
appeal to the general public, only the poor punter on the ground with a hose
in his hand.






> Locally we have 2 S2's with turbines, a helicopter, and an OV-10 spotter.
> I'm only about 3 miles from the airbase, which is comforting! I have seen
> what I think is a DC-6 and a C-130 fighting nearby fires. Actually what I
> think is the DC-6, I got a REAL good look at, as he came up out of a
> canyon and crossed the ridge I was on maybe 1.5x his wingspan above the
> trees. Man I wish I had a camera with me, I could see the pilot looking
> down at me...
>
>
> Jon



--


Cheers

Dave Kearton

Dave,

Thanks much for the in depth reply. What seemed at first a limitation to
me, is just doing what works and makes sense. You're right, it's not
sexy, but that seems to be the way for really effective solutions...

Bigger can be better in some situations, but sometimes we have a
tendency over here to to look for high tech answers to everything. If it
costs more, it surely -must- be better... <sigh>

The situation is of great interest to me as rural NSW will be my home
one of these days.


Jon